It has less recoil, is less expensive and its penetration apparently compares favorably with the larger-sized rounds. Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. In Walmart I carry a p99 Walter. When i was in the military in the 60s we still were using hard ball ammo and the same still applied. I thought a 55 115lb girl with small hands would want a .380, so I was surprise when she chose a Walther PPS in 9mm. Immediately retired the Glock 17 and requalified with a Glock 21 Gen 4 after a long break. Psychological factors play a much greater role. But the major difference is that you would have been 2 rounds away from having to reload as compared to 6 rounds in the case of a Glock 17. Heres what they found it did to those enemies bodies, as republished in New York Times reporter C.J. However, it does suffer from the same issue as the .40s&w, and that is that its snappier in its recoil impulse. Scalise, a Republican from Louisiana whose condition has been upgraded to serious, suffered broken bones, ruptured blood vessels, and shredded internal organs. Case in point, a 1600lb bull mooseshot 3 times at 50 yards with a .338 magnum. Second Media Inc., 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Shot placement rules. Got to love 45 in Army Guard 21 years. Whats more, a temporary cavity measures volume that has been stretched, not volume that has been destroyed. But if stopping power is your only indicator of success in battle, then I suggest a WWII 16 inch navy rifle same as the Battleship Missouri ! This study is still referenced time and again for its information about wounds inflicted by grenade and shell fragments, but what it says about handgun bullets doesnt fit the bigger r always better narrative, so that parts been buried and forgotten. There are four major handgun founding factors. The flesh can tear and cells can burst as the tissue erupts outward and then slams back. But the guy kept on coming. You have bo clue what youre talking about other than maybe your steel target fell over a little easier with a heavier bullet at the range. WebIn real life the tissue damage of the .45 compared to the 9mm is much more and ingame atm the difference is minimal. In a military that accepts all genders and has lowered its physical fitness standards, Its not surprising that the 9mm was selected. Patrick states that since vital organs are located deep within the body, it should be obvious that to ignore penetration and permanent cavity is to ignore the only proven means of damaging or disrupting vital organs. Remember it is massive blood loss that causes circulatory collapse. Guy KEPT COMING and managed to shoot back twice. Millenials and their bias arguments. Its certain to elicit a wide variety of opinions and almost as likely to stir up an argument. They said, ja, the 9mm kills people just fine, as long as you use it the way anyone with any sense uses a pistol caliber. G27 with the 10 for EDC and G22 with 22 count mag for inside the house, 40 doesnt seem to have that much more pop than 9mm to me, and i have relatively small hands. Will that hollow point still have the same effect? Thats funny. Hit your enemy Quickly and Hes Dead. The round severed Platts brachial artery, passing through the arm into his chest and almost entirely through his right lung. Ill take an M4, even with the M855 green-tip ammo that everyone says sucks, over an MP40 or a Thompson or any handgun any day of the week. My Kimber .45 is one of my favorite pistols EVER, but its heavy and only has 8 rounds. We look forward to serving you. Rounds were literally ranked on the basis of temporary cavity volume, with penetration and permanent cavity ignored. 45 muzzle velocity is 500 feet per second and the 9mil is 1500 fps. Tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms: There are two places that we know will incapacitate a man every time they are hit: the brain and the upper spinal column. by Kyle Mizokami Key Point: These are the bullets that will do the Physiologically, a highly motivated target can only be destroyed by hitting the brain or the upper spinal column. Space radiation is made up of protons and all the elements on the periodic table. I dont plan on using a handgun for long distance shooting. And I can certainly understand WHY you would be led to thinking that switching to the Glock 21 would improve your chances of getting a stop. 1SGT. That still dont make them experts but better than the average person. It enters the human body at energies approaching the speed of light and I am not old. Projectiles incapacitate by damaging or destroying the central nervous system, or by causing significant and potentially lethal blood loss. The military is basing their decisions on dollars not dependability not the servicemans life! WebAnswer (1 of 16): It does vary, but most of the time a 5.56mm rifle cartridge will have much more destructive potential than a .45 caliber pistol load does. That aside, its always been my impression with any pistol cartridge, that they dont achieve the velocity necessary for expansion. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it, . 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Arming Yourself: A Woman's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Protecting Your Family: A Parent's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Arming the Elderly: A Self-Defense Guide for Senior Citizens, Holsters for Self Defense: A Guide to Carrying Concealed, Arming Toddlers and The "Kinder-Guardians" Program: A Shamefully Bad Idea, Self Defense for LGBT: Self-Protection and Concealed Carry (CCW) for the LGBT Community, Arming the Disabled: A Self-Defense and Concealed Carry Guide for People With Disabilities. A .20 gauge double barrel should be good for home defense day for a woman or a guy. Physics says my 225 grain .45 ACP ,+P+ traveling at 1210 fps is more capable than ANY 9mm currently available. Theres been many people shot and continue. So they downvote actual biological functions here. And Im not always concerned with concealing. We began clearing the location and papa was lying face up in nothing but his white-e-tieties. EVER! Either will get the job done for protection. Officer Needs Help!!! Modern ammunition changes the field somewhat. Where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. I like it and am very comfortable pulling the trigger in as high stress of a situation as training allows. of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. While massive trauma to the circulatory system can cause incapacitation, this takes time. Both hit 15 first shot, .45 exploded watermelon leaving trails about 15 feet behind, 9mm put a hole in it nothing more. That said a handgun is only used to get to a bigger firearm..it was never ment to be used in longer than 30 meter engagements. Also quoting from the Marine Corps Times: The arguments boil down to this: The .45-caliber round is the bigger bullet, so it has the knock down power to neutralize any adversary with one shot; while pistols that fire 9mm rounds are generally more accurate and can carry more bullets. Ret. To ensure fragmentation would be to make a round so fragile that it would virtually eliminate penetratration. No matter what caliber you are carrying, just remember that one of the keys to shooting through auto glass (whether from within or outside the vehicle) is to shoot as much as possible through the same hole. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. Im sorry but a 225 grain bullet going 850 1200+ fps vs a 127 grain bullet going 975 1150 fps is going to be more effective and deadly. Battlestar Galactica. Most people ask to be shot with the 9mm instead of the .45acp. Frank K. Seems to me that when using the same style bullet in the 45 and 9mm the 45 would still beat the 9 in stopping power. Is the debate on 9mm vs. .45 (or .40) settled then? He was 15.. Of course there are but in general the .45 with its bigger slower round is the better choice for knockdown power. there again I drive a 502 Gasser for pleasure. Going back and reading over your original post, by the by, I can only say this: Also, there are documented cases from New York and other law enforcement agencies of officers shooting criminals and having their bullets pass entirely through the criminal and striking a civilian bystander, thus wounding someone not engaged by the police officer. 9mm. Media in category "Human body" The following 64 files are in this category, out of 64 total. Its only popular because of the name brand, not the true performance against other guns. Thank you. In those 53 years, weve built a reputation as one of Texass most trusted firearms dealers, and we did it in a state where sellers of used guns are almost as common as oil wells and prime rib. Be Safe Out There. Developed in the 1950s, this round combines high velocity with large bullet size. During the shootout, Special Agent Jerry Dove fired a lightweight, high-velocity 9mm round that struck murder/armored car robbery suspect Michael Lee Platt in the upper right arm. Still, no one should select a caliber based on the assumption that it will expand sufficiently to incapacitate an assailant. I am just way more comfortable with the way it shoots. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. Its proven knowledge. You will find that when tested in this manner the 45acp will out perform the 9mm hands down. I can shoot consistently accurately. Hence poor shot placement, causing a miss or worse the poor animal suffering a slow painful unnecessary death. The new .50Ae desert eagle has as much recoil as the 1911/M45 which is unrealistc (the .45 has alot less recoil). My department stopped using them in 45 cal because there were enough malfunction to stop. I carried an issue 45. 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase Well my neighbor finally bought the pistol from him and turned around and qualified with it in front of the other deputy. When the engagement really happens and it is very fluid you are going to point shoot. FN DUH! .45 ACP damage increased from 35-40-65 to 35-40-75, and minimum damage decreased from 60% to 50%. You're Dead: 5 Deadliest Bullets In The World They're just as important as the gun that fires them. 25 yard 1.52 off hand 5 rnd groups on the nose. I personally dont find much difference in recoil between a compact 9mm and compact .40 S&W; but I recognize and am sympathetic to other shooters who do. Between 14 and 45 , flak jacket and 5 mag 20 7.76 stayed in shape. The 9mm travels a great deal faster than the .45, with average muzzle velocity averaging between 1100-1200 FPS. What you provide is false true and true. 15 -25 yards lol I can hit you in between the eyes with my co2 bb pistol. We were already running +P for our 9 9mms. I do lean toward my 1911 just because I like it. Either work for me, and if I had to choose only one it would be 9mm just for the capacity. Not to suggest that a skilled shooter (and/or soldier or Marine) couldnt shoot it, but almost anybody is going to be faster with a 9mm in their hands. That said today I only carry my 5th gen Glock 19. In my limited experience, shot placement is is the ultimate factor with any round. Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. It turns out, however, that things arent that simple. Just saying. At 8yoa my dad taught me to shoot with a 1911. Now lets get back to today in time and we do have very good defense ammo so most of the time Id agree that the 9mm is equal to any other round out there today for human sized targets and smaller as well. There is also the very real factor of life-or-death, fight-or-flight stress. When all else fails, when the rounds fail to stop the bad guy, then you need time on your side. I have my personal preferences and it is the .45 ACP, next is the 40 S&W, down the line a couple of notches is the 9mm. Okay all handgun are garbage. So its all about what fits they individual and what they are comfortable and accurate with. the statement that a 9mm can carry more bullets. True. Thats right George. Everyone should buy a magnum-powered handgun in .357 or larger caliber and feel completely secure that he or she has the best stopping power. Which things can be argued, but more important is being able to handle what you have. Just came down from AK and bears and mad moose have been my biggest issue. May everyone who reads this have a Blessed Day! Just some REAL world observation not keyboard commando stuff. I had a Sig P320 and the recoil is not that much greater. After the FBI, he served as a Massachusetts Deputy Inspector Generaland is currently a deputy sheriff for Plymouth County, Massachusetts. The test results disclosed that the .45 round displaced an average of 4.22 cubic inches of tissue, the 10mm round 4.11 cubic inches and the 9mm round 2.82 cubic inches. Of the nearly 250 million guns owned by Americans at that time, somewhere between 40 and 50 million of them were handguns. This remained the norm in the FBI until May 2014. WebYes, definitely. I have used the 1911 govt. Not to mention costs savings in ammo which is a big deal both in the government and civilian perspective. Weve known this for, what, eighty years now? Mainly because it is polymer from and not as well build and equipped as the Walther Q4. At 10-20 yards I want a .45. None used a big cal but all targets were immediately incapacitated and all targets were within 1foot to 20 feet away. are 9mm rounds substantially more accurate than their larger caliber brethren? Look at the Walter Scott shooting. His analysis is paramount to someone telling me the 7mm Rem Mag will outperform the 8mm Rem Mag. But according to the FBI (First Bunch of Idiots) it isnt possible. Now thats hilarious. Both forget one major factor. Larry Muhr, A little anecdote. Is S&W so inferior that our domestic brand was eliminated? The .45 acp bounced off the helmet at 35 yards while the 9mm penetrated the helmet at an astonishing 125 yards proving that the 9mm with its higher velocity, flatter When I left LE I traided for a S&W 39-2 9mm. Nothing beats a 12 guage with 100 rounds of 00 and slugs. I read a study from an Army medic regarding one shot kills from a handgun. To the extent the wound components cause or increase the effects of these two mechanisms, the likelihood of incapacitation increases. We souped up the 38 special to produce it .The 10 Auto was dumb ed down to create the 40sw. Thanks. Maybe .22 LR? Circulatory collapse will result in significant deprivation of oxygen to the brain. And speed kills barriers. Of course shot placement is important. As a medical provider who fractured his back, making a house call in Alaska-dealing with chronic pain issues-I have talk to our local Police Captain. Thank you Bill ! With a bone thats been shot with a standard-issue caliber handgun, youll see a break, a hole in the bone, and maybe some displacement. I have shot pigs, goats, and deer in several countries with rounds from .22 lr and mags, 9mm, .45 ACP and .45 colts and .44 sol and mags in handguns. Sick and tried of people not in the field deciding what is best for those in the field. A 35-45 psi One or two out of every twenty or more perfect placement leaves me desirous of a heavy hitter. And no I have not tried it with Glock 19 I really dont like Glock it feels weird in my hand and does not perform anywhere close to my Kimber Colt 45 or my Walther Q4. I like it better than the small pistols and can conceal the 1911 easily. If one keeps a weapon in the home for self defense, we believe that it is a duty to know the weapon inside and out and to train with it regularly. Yes, Alvin York killed seven Germans with seven rounds of .45 ACP ball, starting from almost 100m out, in front of superior officers who went out afterwards and kicked the dead Huns in the head before they made their reports. Alvin York was a prodigy, a natural marksman of frankly terrifying and borderline-supernatural skill. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. When fragmentation occurs, the permanent cavity expands rapidly and dramatically. But its a good idea to carry a backup gun, and 2 spare mags that use the same ammo. Now marine I hope your watching now instead of using glock 19 in a 9mm counterpart here is a better suggestion why dont you use a glock 21 4th gene to insure ur fellow colleges a better a faster on the spot accuracy with zero recoil it will enable them to be more successful in hitting targets. Your tax-deductible donation will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. I have never personally tested 9mm long range, but I have seen 45 Auto results. In this dangerous time period, an officers adversary can continue his deadly actions against an officer. This is important because of permanent cavitation: The greater amount of tissue that is destroyed, the greater chance of incapacitation, all other factors being equal. This study is thus inherently flawed, as it ranks large shallow wounds above deeper ones. It has never failed me and conceals extremely well. Which would put a bullet in the lower chest area with variance of the bullet which can be 2-3 or even 5-6. For gun owners, this means that, when you fire a brutally powerful weapon, its going to shove you backwards as well as fly up. This is what can incapacitate a target, even with a poorly placed torso shot. Even after suffering multiple 9mm gunshot wounds, victims are capable of fleeing considerable distances. The louder the pop the more credence is added to his choice to continue in his efforts his engagement with you. If, God forbid, you are ever in a situation where you are required to use your handgun, there is, to put it mildly, a great deal at stake. SS and Homeland couldnt be to aly wrong!!! Four ribs had essentially turned to dust. I carry a 9mm myself, and train to rapid fire. With this in mind, we will now explore handgun wounding factors. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. All this scientific garbage really sounds great, but if you need fifteen rounds to eliminate a threat you got real bad aiming habits. That will put anything down.But if it comes time to kill a man should there be any fun in it. Let me suggest that politics might be at play. A true warriors gun. We put our money behind the 9mm round fired by an extremely well-trained marksman carrying a Glock 19, Mannweiler told Marine Corps Times. Also, I have pretty much explained what you have just said. Ruger already dominates the American handgun market, and they are very profitable, so it may not have been worth it to them. A 4 inch Redhawk 45 colt loaded with 24 grains of H100 under a 335 grain Cast performance sledgehammer should be good against the largest carnivore Todd. Its not our opinion that makes us right. A bullet entering an enemys body does damage in two ways. Marine Force Recon Vietnam Vet. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. It doesnt get more damaging that that. Remember, people dont have health bars. One single shot from nea The Krag was a failure for two reasons. .45 ACP Damage Body Shots Head Shots Sounds Firing (9mm) Firing (.45 ACP) Reloading Swapping To Rarity The Vector is a rare SMG that spawns mainly in Hatchet Cases in the Hydra Bunker and rarely in the Storm Bunker (10% chance). However I agree with you about a .22 in the right place is more deadly than a 50 in the wrong place. Do give the Walther PPS serious consideration. This represents a cultural shift in America. Now lets talk about wound cavities caused by different caliber handgun rounds. I immediately thought, I think Ive been shot. Took about 1Min until the shock yielded to the pain. Damage: 22 per pellet. I cant compare to 9mm but I still want to carry 45acp. For this reason, some dismiss magnum rounds altogether and sing the praises of the S&W .40 round, which supposedly combines the best features of the .45 ACP and the 9mm. What type of bullet is being fired? I just got a glock30SF and im thinking of adding her to the g27 for my CC permit. But associates I worked with and against on jobs they all use one main gun to kill with the 9 mm with silencer. This was not a good CC gun so I traded it for a S&W 39-2 9mm. The mechanism by which adamantinomatous craniopharyngioma (ACP) damages the hypothalamus is still unclear. The Smith & Wesson Model 26 is a target style revolver chambered in .45 ACP. I see your point. I have also recorded a few single-shot kills from a .45ACP, one from as far Bowman, I guess I might be a little old school, 1911 45, M1 Grand in 3006, or M1A in a 308, these are older, but they have not made better guns or calibersI still have a glock and some 9s, but only because If I do have to use it I dont want to lose my 1911, and yes I have a AR15, but still like the A1 more. It is often said in sports talk, that the game is a game of inches. This is also true in life and death gun battles like the FBI Miami shootout. Slow-motion videos of ballistics tests clearly illustrate this difference. Now good defensive hollow point is a different story. What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. It seems to me to be better than the 9mm or the 45 acp Let us know your thoughts in the comments below! Lets say it is winter and a large person is wearing very heavy clothing. Been hunting 49 years. If I were young I would consider a compact 45, but at 73. 12 shots fired. For the better part of a decade, working on the streets in 2 of the 4 most dangerous neighborhoods in these United States, (per semi-annual FBI Violent Crime statistics) shot distance and circumstance can NOT be accurately anticipated. During the last 15 years in LE, I have seen literally dozens of gun shot wounds. As where the .45, would dislodge the silhouette every time with a single shot. Here is the money point: assume you will only get ONE shot at the perp. I have both, like them all, and carry them because rifles are hard to conceal! However, the round stopped just short of entering Platts heart/aorta, only penetrating his torso about six or seven inches. Explore. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often. If Agent Doves bullet had entered Platts heart, he would have perished quickly, before launching his life-ending assault. Tissue inside the human body is remarkably elastic, even vital organs such as the lungs, bowels or circulatory system. The .45, for instance, is slightly slower than the 9mm, but features a more massive projectile, with 250 grains of mass compared to the 9mms typical 115 grains. This myth continues not because of fact, rather because of unsubstantiated statements like this. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet requires a minimum of 250 ft/s velocity to penetrate fresh human skin. Its unlikely Id ever have to shoot at anything other than paper targets. In the past, one of the standard tests performed to assess bullet and cartridge performance was the penetration of pine boards of various thicknesses. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for And if Im responsible enough to use a firearm to fight for my government, Im responsible enough to own a firearm to protect myself and loved ones. There is little or no noticeable difference in wound tracks between 9mm Luger, .40 S&W and .45 Auto premium line rounds. Other than for general interest, this type of test is of little use in the scientific examination of firearms-related situations. So its definitely capable. Chris Bartocci on a YouTube video explains why MARSOC went away from this 1911. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. Good job Chris and the rest of you but remember when you give gun advise target shooting and self defense shooting are two different scenarios and one can get you deadyou cant shoot my gun as good as me but you can shoot your gun because its the best one for you. All rights reserved. The comments concerning shot placement are correct. He is the author of two published books on deadly force and an upcoming book on supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. Grinder: I realize this reply is way late in being posted, but I couldnt let that pass. The only other way to end an adversarys life-threatening action is through circulatory collapse. Yes, Hugh, I have shot both rounds into a human and I can say this. Shot placement is the deciding factor. Back then we all agreed the larger rounds had better stopping power. Rifle rounds have an elongated, oblong shape and so they often tumble. By the way. However, there are two factors virtually everyone agrees on: 1. Not everyone is as capable or as comfortable at shooting a .45ACP as they are a 9mm. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, wrote a column in the New York Times about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round.